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12 valave or 24 valve?

  
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12 valave or 24 valve?

 
backwoodsboy916 backwoodsboy916
Enthusiast | Posts: 260 | Joined: 10/06
Posted: 09/26/07
10:21 AM

My current truck is a 1999 Ram 3500 4x4 and im plannin on sellin it to get one with the 6 speed manual, and Ive been lookin at 01s and newer with the H.O. cummins but ive been noticin how much cheaper the 12 valves are, and i guess my question is which is the better choice. I want to up the power as much as i can without sacrificing mileage or reliability, cause it is a daily driver. It needs to be able to tow like a hauss, tractors, cows, hay, and all the jeeps and trucks my friends can tear up in the woods. I also dont have too much money to spend on it at first, cause in a week i start school (to be a heavy diesel service tech). The superchip i have was affordable and gave it much better power, but the 12 valves dont have the computers and stuff, so is there a cheap and easy way to up the power without blowin it up?  
2005 Dodge Ram 3500 4 Door 4Wd Longbed 6SPD manual, Silverline 4 inch exhaust,ATS Performance Exhaust Manifold, K&N Intake,CFM Intake Manifold, Edge Juice w/Attitude, Recon Smoked Roof and Fender Lights, 285/70/17 Firestone M/Ts,  MUCH MUCH MORE to come, one day...when im not so BROKE.....


Member: Blowin Smoke Gang

twinspin twinspin
New User | Posts: 5 | Joined: 07/06
Posted: 09/29/07
11:08 AM

Hey;
In my opinion, the 12 valve has the most reliable, and versital injection pump as long as it is a P7100 series. But you will have a more drivable and economical (MPG) truck with the 24 valve, because the fueling is electronically controlled it will maintain a smoother idle and better drivability at lower throttle possitions. The 12 valve is a great performer but the clutch will wear much faster, and the only thing you can really do yourself to increase the performance short of after market ($) upgrades is move the restrictor plate in the injection pump. I think if you are looking for a good streetable performer your best choice will be a 2nd gen. or a common rail.  

backwoodsboy916 backwoodsboy916
Enthusiast | Posts: 260 | Joined: 10/06
Posted: 09/29/07
08:15 PM

are there any modifications that can be done to the 12 valve, like an intake, an exhaust, or anything that can help improve the 12 valves mileage? Wether i get a 12 valve or 24 valve, im gonna get an intake and stacks, and if its a 24 valve ill get a chip of some kind, caust the superchip i have know helps the milage, but i dont know what kind of mods ther are for the older ones. Im not finding any 12 valves with the 6 speed, did they only come with the 5 speeds, cause ive always heard how much stronger they are compared to the 5 speeds.  
2005 Dodge Ram 3500 4 Door 4Wd Longbed 6SPD manual, Silverline 4 inch exhaust,ATS Performance Exhaust Manifold, K&N Intake,CFM Intake Manifold, Edge Juice w/Attitude, Recon Smoked Roof and Fender Lights, 285/70/17 Firestone M/Ts,  MUCH MUCH MORE to come, one day...when im not so BROKE.....


Member: Blowin Smoke Gang

Dieseldude03 Dieseldude03
Enthusiast | Posts: 357 | Joined: 01/07
Posted: 09/30/07
08:48 AM

Another "problem" with getting a 12 valve truck is the 5-speed manual transmissions that were used in the early 12-valves before the current NV-4500 (sorry. i can't remember the name of the trans) weren't known for being real tough. They'll take some engine mods, but don't expect it to hold a lot.  
2003 Dodge Ram 2500 Laramie 4x4. H.O. Cummins, 6spd manual trans, 4.10 gearing. Intake, Exhaust, Hot Juice, HTT HTB2 62/12/65, Jake Brake, 305-65R17 (33 x 12.50) Pro-Comp Extreme All Terrains, SBC Con O FE, Fuel Tank Vent Mod,  Various other gizmos.


I-6 Cummins guys are keepin' it straight. Those other boys swing both ways.

97cummins 97cummins
User | Posts: 193 | Joined: 07/07
Posted: 09/30/07
08:35 PM

Ther are things you can do to improve the milage on a 12v.I have one.I started with an upgrade of the exhaust system.Then upgraded the air intaake to a banks twin ram.Then changed from the stock air box to the afe stage 1 cold air intake.And i also changed the stock fuel plate to a #10 plate.When i bought the truck everything was stock, and getting arod 9 or 10 mpg. Now i'm getting around 19 to 21 mpg.As for the tranny,they only had the 5 sp. at the time.  
afe stage 1,#10 fuel plate,bd torque lock,rear suspension air
bags,4"turbo back exhaust,banks twin ram,line-x,windows tinted,3000 rpm governor springs,3guage a-piller and more to come.4"exhaust straight piped,turbo silencer ring mia,"member-blowin-smoke gang"

DieselDood DieselDood
User | Posts: 56 | Joined: 07/06
Posted: 10/02/07
03:10 PM

Guys don't give the 5spd enough credit.  There are PLENTY of guys out there sled pulling laying down 600+hp and not having any problems.  The real 'known' problem with them is that the 5th gear nut backs off and you loose 5th.

I personally love the 12v's.  They have the most durable injection system.  They are the King of milage as well, as long as you drive them nice.  I know one guy that crosses the scale at 8000lbs and gets 27mpg regularly. (he also doesn't go past 10psi of boost very often...but that's another story)  He's also sitting at 330hp.  

The 24v engines are a great engine as well, but have been plagued with lift pump problems, the 53 block issues and injection pump failures.  Usually the Injection pump (vp44) fails after the lift pump fails.  The injection pump bairly has enough draw to pull the fuel from the tank.  So when the lift pump fails the VP44 looses the excess fuel that the lift pump supplies.  The excess fuel is what cools the injection pump.  Without the return fuel, the VP44 will litterally sieze inturnally.  
www.tripledperformance.com
Your Diesel Performance Experts.  Home of the DHRA Quick Diesel Champion and 17th place Hot Rod Magazine Drag week truck! 12.04 @112mph

Dieseldude03 Dieseldude03
Enthusiast | Posts: 357 | Joined: 01/07
Posted: 10/02/07
04:08 PM

I was referring to the manual that was used behind the early 12-valve Cummins. (first gen?) After doing some digging, I found out it was a Getrag 5-speed, and supposedly wasn't as strong as the NV series. But I've also seen guys pulling 30,000lb grain trailers with the "weaker" trans, so ...... There was also a 3-speed automatic available at the same time. Most likely the 727 TorqFlight or some variant.  
2003 Dodge Ram 2500 Laramie 4x4. H.O. Cummins, 6spd manual trans, 4.10 gearing. Intake, Exhaust, Hot Juice, HTT HTB2 62/12/65, Jake Brake, 305-65R17 (33 x 12.50) Pro-Comp Extreme All Terrains, SBC Con O FE, Fuel Tank Vent Mod,  Various other gizmos.


I-6 Cummins guys are keepin' it straight. Those other boys swing both ways.

BCRAM BCRAM
Enthusiast | Posts: 672 | Joined: 11/06
Posted: 10/02/07
05:22 PM

The reason I went with the 24 valve was because of the truck (or packing crate as some would call it). I had to have 4 doors because I have kids and I wanted 4 wheel disc brakes and 6spd trans. You can't get that in a 12 valve. I haven't heard of problems with the VP-44 once the lift pump has been replaced with a correct one. The fuel not only cools, it lubricates the VP-44 as well. DieselDood is right, with the low fuel pressure the stock Carter lift pump produces it will cook that VP-44 pretty quick.  
2002 Dodge Ram 6 SPD Fass pump, afe cold air, mbrp 4" ss exhaust, 275hp RV injectors, edge ez, isspro gauges, South Bend clutch, track bar updated to 03-07 style, dss steering stabilizer system, 285 Cooper Discover

"If it doesn't have tit's a trigger or a throttle I'm pretty much not interested!"

backwoodsboy916 backwoodsboy916
Enthusiast | Posts: 260 | Joined: 10/06
Posted: 10/02/07
05:53 PM

Thank yall for all the info, its a big help, im glad theres a place where you can post questions like this, cause everbody where i live has there own opinions but not many people have any real facts to base this on, just opinions. Keep the info coming cause im taking all this into account to help me make my decision. The diesel tech thing is out the window for know, due to conflicts with my work schedule cause schools important but but i cant get there if they repo my truck! Some folks might be upset about having to wait but the way i see it, i got another 4-6 months to save up more money and get the higher paying job that im looking at, and that means more money and more parts! Ill start at a cloer school after Christmas, and hopefully with a better truck. What about the prices for a new clutch for both the 5 and 6 speed (12 and 24 vavles)?  
2005 Dodge Ram 3500 4 Door 4Wd Longbed 6SPD manual, Silverline 4 inch exhaust,ATS Performance Exhaust Manifold, K&N Intake,CFM Intake Manifold, Edge Juice w/Attitude, Recon Smoked Roof and Fender Lights, 285/70/17 Firestone M/Ts,  MUCH MUCH MORE to come, one day...when im not so BROKE.....


Member: Blowin Smoke Gang

BCRAM BCRAM
Enthusiast | Posts: 672 | Joined: 11/06
Posted: 10/02/07
06:03 PM

Go to South Bend Clutches web site they will answer all your clutch questions.  
2002 Dodge Ram 6 SPD Fass pump, afe cold air, mbrp 4" ss exhaust, 275hp RV injectors, edge ez, isspro gauges, South Bend clutch, track bar updated to 03-07 style, dss steering stabilizer system, 285 Cooper Discover

"If it doesn't have tit's a trigger or a throttle I'm pretty much not interested!"

DieselDood DieselDood
User | Posts: 56 | Joined: 07/06
Posted: 10/02/07
09:13 PM

Ahh Gotcha DieselDude...  The early Getrags weren't bad for their time....but they aren't great...  The early 3 spds are exactly that, a 727 Torque Flight.  

The one thing that I failed to mention before... the 12v's run the P7100.  With the new ULSD the pump shops are starting to see issues.  Not enough lubrication for the inturnal parts causing the plungers and barrels inside the pump to get scored.  So no matter what you run for a truck, definatly make sure you are adding something as a lubricity additive.  
www.tripledperformance.com
Your Diesel Performance Experts.  Home of the DHRA Quick Diesel Champion and 17th place Hot Rod Magazine Drag week truck! 12.04 @112mph

Dieseldude03 Dieseldude03
Enthusiast | Posts: 357 | Joined: 01/07
Posted: 10/03/07
08:00 AM

Agreed. I'm not at all impressed with what I've been hearing when it comes to this ULSD and older (and newer) diesel fuel systems and pumps. Been reading that since the intro of ULSD, 2003 Cummins Dodges have been eating injectors. And now the P7100's are starting to crap out? Great!

Whatever you buy, just go to Wall-Mart or about any national parts store and pick up some Power Service Diesel Kleen. Grey bottle for warm weather, white bottle for cold weather. It'll take care of any lubricity problems and give you a little extra fuel mileage in the process. I've been using in my truck long before the ULSD came out and haven't had any fuel system related problems, yet (knock on wood).  
2003 Dodge Ram 2500 Laramie 4x4. H.O. Cummins, 6spd manual trans, 4.10 gearing. Intake, Exhaust, Hot Juice, HTT HTB2 62/12/65, Jake Brake, 305-65R17 (33 x 12.50) Pro-Comp Extreme All Terrains, SBC Con O FE, Fuel Tank Vent Mod,  Various other gizmos.


I-6 Cummins guys are keepin' it straight. Those other boys swing both ways.

backwoodsboy916 backwoodsboy916
Enthusiast | Posts: 260 | Joined: 10/06
Posted: 10/03/07
09:37 AM

If i do buy a 12 valve, is it possible or practical to swap the newer 6 speed into the truck, or are the 5 speeds not really that bad?  
2005 Dodge Ram 3500 4 Door 4Wd Longbed 6SPD manual, Silverline 4 inch exhaust,ATS Performance Exhaust Manifold, K&N Intake,CFM Intake Manifold, Edge Juice w/Attitude, Recon Smoked Roof and Fender Lights, 285/70/17 Firestone M/Ts,  MUCH MUCH MORE to come, one day...when im not so BROKE.....


Member: Blowin Smoke Gang

BCRAM BCRAM
Enthusiast | Posts: 672 | Joined: 11/06
Posted: 10/03/07
11:20 AM

The 5spd(NV-4500) is a good trans. They are known to let the nut that holds 5th in place back off and you will loose 5th gear but there is a fix for that now. I have run Howes Lubricant in all my diesels for years and I truly believe it has saved me on some big repair bills. I sold a 7.3 idi with 140,000 miles on the original pump that's gotta say something.  
2002 Dodge Ram 6 SPD Fass pump, afe cold air, mbrp 4" ss exhaust, 275hp RV injectors, edge ez, isspro gauges, South Bend clutch, track bar updated to 03-07 style, dss steering stabilizer system, 285 Cooper Discover

"If it doesn't have tit's a trigger or a throttle I'm pretty much not interested!"

97cummins 97cummins
User | Posts: 193 | Joined: 07/07
Posted: 10/04/07
01:53 AM

I've used the diesel kleen fuel system cleaner(grey and white bottles) in my 12v for quite some time know and i havn't had any problems yet with my fuel system. I also don't like the ulsd fuel either.  
afe stage 1,#10 fuel plate,bd torque lock,rear suspension air
bags,4"turbo back exhaust,banks twin ram,line-x,windows tinted,3000 rpm governor springs,3guage a-piller and more to come.4"exhaust straight piped,turbo silencer ring mia,"member-blowin-smoke gang"

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