Ford Excursion 12v Cummins, need guidance!

Howdy guys,

I'm 18, going to college in the next year (Univ. Of Texas, Mechanical Engineer/Business), just got keys to a 2004 4x2 Ford 6.0L diesel Excursion with 180k miles. I have $20K to completely revamp the whole thing (2,000 hours of work as a bike mechanic). My plans thus far are as follows.

Engine: 12v 5.9L Cummins 1994-1997

Displacement: 359 cubic inches, 5.9 liters  
Configuration: Inline 6 cylinder  
Compression Ratio:  17.0:1  
Bore: 4.02 inches  
Stroke: 4.72 inches  
Injection: Direct Injection:
Bosch VE injection pump (1989-1993).
Bosch P7100 injection pump (1994-1998).
Aspiration: Holset turbocharger  
Valvetrain: OHV, 2 valves per cylinder, solid lifter camshaft  
Oil Capacity:  11 quarts  
Weight: approx. 975 lbs
*Horsepower:  160 - 215 HP @ 2,500 RPM  
*Torque:  400 - 440 lb-ft @ 1,600 RPM  

I need a modification list with citations. I want 500HP/900+lb-ft of torque as a daily driver towing 17,000lbs on the weekends. I also do no want to spend more then $7k on the engine w/mods (if possible?).I will be running 37-42 inch tall tyres. Allison transmission (6 speed). Dana 60 rear axle, detroit air locker. 35 spline shafts. Motor mounts and transmission plate will come from destroked.com (Ford/Cummins/Allison geeks). Will a stock Allison 1000 trans hold to my power/torque goal? If not, I would also like a modification list with citations for the trans as well if y'all do not mind. Also, is it possible to get a 6 speed Allison transmission that can handle my power numbers for under $4k?(Any help I would be so greatful for!)

Exterior cosmetics include a new front clip (09+) from an F-250/F-350. Has anyone done this? Is there a kit for this? Any suggestions? I hate the way my 04 looks, and I need to replace the bumper/head-lights/left fender regardless. So, I figured if I were to replace the whole from clip, now would be the time. Below are picture links of what I am after.

Picture #1: http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i267/sa_seahawker/excursion01.jpg

Picture #2: http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i267/sa_seahawker/excursion02.jpg

Picture #3: http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i267/sa_seahawker/excursion03.jpg

Suspension will be my own CV (Continueously Varible) design with 2.0 King coil over shocks (14" of travel). I am hoping to have an auto sway bar disconnect for maximum axle articulation when wheeling. I might add air shocks as well because the possiblity of me towing often. It's complicated to explain. Suspension geometry is a ***

My suspension will require a Dana 60 front axle. Any suggestions on getting one thats reliable on the cheep? Junkyard/rebuild? I intend on putting a locker in it as well. Possiblely hydrulic steering.

That pretty much sums up my position. My Email is Politicalbiker@cox.net. Any help at all or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

-Kyle Burroughs Kraakevik (10/22/09)  

Wow.  You've got alot of stuff going on so let's break it down a into more manageable pieces, okay?

I need a modification list with citations. I want 500HP/900+lb-ft of torque as a daily driver towing 17,000lbs on the weekends. I also do no want to spend more then $7k on the engine w/mods (if possible?).

The cost of an engine is going to run you about $5k by itself, and it will need some work so $7k isn't going to be enough.  An upgraded P-pump will run you over a grand, and injectors will run at least that much.  You're still going to need compound turbos, head studs, and fire ring it.  You would still need an aftermarket 100% aluminium intercooler ($1000 to $1500), an intake manifold (cast aluminium S&B) and multi-piece exhaust manifold.  Realistically speaking you're looking more at $12k to $16k.

As for the truck towing 17,000 pounds, it will need to be a 1 ton truck minimum.  Why are you towing this much weight, and does this weight include the truck as well?  And why do I have a feeling this isn't a 1 ton truck?



I will be running 37-42 inch tall tyres. Allison transmission (6 speed). Dana 60 rear axle, detroit air locker. 35 spline shafts. Motor mounts and transmission plate will come from destroked.com (Ford/Cummins/Allison geeks). Will a stock Allison 1000 trans hold to my power/torque goal? If not, I would also like a modification list with citations for the trans as well if y'all do not mind. Also, is it possible to get a 6 speed Allison transmission that can handle my power numbers for under $4k?(Any help I would be so greatful for!)

To tow 17,000 pounds you really need "E" rated tires.  The sidewalls need to be strong enough to handle that weight, and I've not heard of a tire that big rated "E".

For the Allison, no stock transmission will hold 500hp and 900ft/lbs torque for very long unless you baby it all the time, and I don't think you're gonna do that pulling 17,000 pounds every weekend.  Building up an Allison plus the needed adapter plate will cost more than building up a tranny for this.  You're better off sticking with something from Goerend or NADP, or go with a manual and high end clutch.  Also, running 37 to 42 inch tires will require you to run 4.10 rears at a minimum, preferably 4.56's if you're running the 42's.



Exterior cosmetics include a new front clip (09+) from an F-250/F-350. Has anyone done this? Is there a kit for this? Any suggestions? I hate the way my 04 looks, and I need to replace the bumper/head-lights/left fender regardless. So, I figured if I were to replace the whole from clip, now would be the time.

Yeah this is a common cosmetic upgrade.  Check with the Ford guys here, or one of the Ford specific forums.



Suspension will be my own CV (Continueously Varible) design with 2.0 King coil over shocks (14" of travel). I am hoping to have an auto sway bar disconnect for maximum axle articulation when wheeling. I might add air shocks as well because the possiblity of me towing often. It's complicated to explain. Suspension geometry is a ***

My suspension will require a Dana 60 front axle. Any suggestions on getting one thats reliable on the cheep? Junkyard/rebuild? I intend on putting a locker in it as well. Possiblely hydrulic steering.

Now this is where you start to become confusing as to exactly what you want your truck to do.

What exactly are you trying to build, a towing rig, a race truck, or a baja buggy?  Why are you converting a 2WD truck to 4WD?  Now you're going to need an axle, new gears up front to match the new gears in the rear so you can run those big tires in 4WD, and a transfer case plus hardware.

You're really all over the place with what you want the truck to do for you.  It's not going to be a tow rig/baja buggy/quarter mile ride, so you need to decide what you really want and it has to be realistic.




Kris  
2006 Dodge Ram 2500 QC 5.9L - No Mods Yet
2008 Dodge Ram 3500 QC 6.7L - Titan Fuel Tank Owner

MarineOne,

Thank you for the reply. Yes, I do beleive I am asking for to much with to little. My response to your reply will be more realistic.

The cost of an engine is going to run you about $5k by itself, and it will need some work so $7k isn't going to be enough.  An upgraded P-pump will run you over a grand, and injectors will run at least that much.  You're still going to need compound turbos, head studs, and fire ring it.  You would still need an aftermarket 100% aluminium intercooler ($1000 to $1500), an intake manifold (cast aluminium S&B) and multi-piece exhaust manifold.  Realistically speaking you're looking more at $12k to $16k.

As for the truck towing 17,000 pounds, it will need to be a 1 ton truck minimum.  Why are you towing this much weight, and does this weight include the truck as well?  And why do I have a feeling this isn't a 1 ton truck?

The Excursion is based off the F-350 short bed chassis, SRW 1-ton. I am towing a 34 foot company trailer while they repair their beater 02 Dodge dually. We hold 4 tool bays in it, plus almost 100 bikes. Every weekend there is a cycling event I need to be at with the trailer. It is a temporary problem, but its taking much longer then expected to fix the Dodge after I offered to tow it. Go figure.

Regard the engine cost to achieve such power numbers, I knew the sky is the limit as far as cost and power, but I was not expecting nearly double my projected price. Is a twin-turbo setup really necessary for 500HP? Lets say I gave the engine $10k for a total build.

Engine: $5,0000 (5.9L Cummins 12v)
Head Studs: $500 (ARP diesel Head Stud kit)
Intercooler: $1,500 (Brand?)
Intake Manifold: $300 (CFM+)
Fire Ring kit: $300 (Online sorce)
Injectors: $670 (Marine 350HP injectors)
*P-pump: $2,375 (Elite Diesel, 400HP)

Total thus far: $10,645 ...Yikes.

*Regarding the P-pump, I read on forums the stock P7100 pump on the 12v is capible of 93HP per cyclinder. Which would make my 500HP goal. Thoughts?

To tow 17,000 pounds you really need "E" rated tires.  The sidewalls need to be strong enough to handle that weight, and I've not heard of a tire that big rated "E".

For the Allison, no stock transmission will hold 500hp and 900ft/lbs torque for very long unless you baby it all the time, and I don't think you're gonna do that pulling 17,000 pounds every weekend.  Building up an Allison plus the needed adapter plate will cost more than building up a tranny for this.  You're better off sticking with something from Goerend or NADP, or go with a manual and high end clutch.  Also, running 37 to 42 inch tires will require you to run 4.10 rears at a minimum, preferably 4.56's if you're running the 42's.

I found a seller on Ebay that builds Billet Allison transmissions to handle 700HP. Buy it now is $3,299+$150 shipping. That solves the transmission. As far as the tyre size and needing to put proper gear ratio's in my differentials, looking at how much this is going to cost, I think I am going to have to save the suspension work for another day.

Yeah this is a common cosmetic upgrade.  Check with the Ford guys here, or one of the Ford specific forums.

Will do. I also noticed that Ford changed their cosmetics for the 2011 F-series. I will most likely wait until the body parts are avalible for the new style.

Now this is where you start to become confusing as to exactly what you want your truck to do.

What exactly are you trying to build, a towing rig, a race truck, or a baja buggy?  Why are you converting a 2WD truck to 4WD?  Now you're going to need an axle, new gears up front to match the new gears in the rear so you can run those big tires in 4WD, and a transfer case plus hardware.

You're really all over the place with what you want the truck to do for you.  It's not going to be a tow rig/baja buggy/quarter mile ride, so you need to decide what you really want and it has to be realistic.

My plan: Build a long travel daily driver to test my suspension design. I plan on beating the hell out of it Baja style every free weekend I get when I finnaly complete the suspension system.

Reality is that I do no beleive I will be able to afford nearly everything I want in my rig. My first goal is to have a solid truck to bring to college. So the engine and transmission swap will be my first bear to tackle. Cosmetics well come second. And the suspension will come another day. I am using for my senior project. so I have 4 years to come up with the money and build it. No rush.

Thanks again for the reply, I hope this fills in some of the gaps of information I left out in my first post!

-KBK  

The Excursion is based off the F-350 short bed chassis, SRW 1-ton. I am towing a 34 foot company trailer while they repair their beater 02 Dodge dually. We hold 4 tool bays in it, plus almost 100 bikes. Every weekend there is a cycling event I need to be at with the trailer. It is a temporary problem, but its taking much longer then expected to fix the Dodge after I offered to tow it. Go figure.

Okay that will work for the Cummins.  You'll have enough room to fit the engine, and the stock suspension will be able to handle it.



Regard the engine cost to achieve such power numbers, I knew the sky is the limit as far as cost and power, but I was not expecting nearly double my projected price. Is a twin-turbo setup really necessary for 500HP? Lets say I gave the engine $10k for a total build.

Engine: $5,000 (5.9L Cummins 12v)
Head Studs: $500 (ARP diesel Head Stud kit)
Intercooler: $1,500 (Brand?)
Intake Manifold: $300 (CFM+)
Fire Ring kit: $300 (Online sorce)
Injectors: $670 (Marine 350HP injectors)
*P-pump: $2,375 (Elite Diesel, 400HP)

Total thus far: $10,645 ...Yikes.

*Regarding the P-pump, I read on forums the stock P7100 pump on the 12v is capible of 93HP per cyclinder. Which would make my 500HP goal. Thoughts?

To be honest, you're not having to pay what some folks have paid to build up an engine.  Some of the ones featured in the magazine can run well over $20,000.

Now for all the upgrades and why you need them, let me explain this a different way.  You're basically doubling the horsepower this engine normally puts out.  If you don't fix the areas you know where a problem could or does exist to get the numbers you want, you lose the dependibility this engine provides.  A great example I use for this is a phrase from an instructor for a class I was taking on programming langauges:

Garbage in, garbage out.

Now anytime you add more fuel you need to add more air to get that fuel to burn, otherwise you get black smoke and alot of it.  Adding the extra air will burn that fuel and you'll get the power you want.  Black smoke is unburned fuel, which increases EGT's (exhaust gas temps) and could cause turbo failure.  As in making it look like Cherynobol.  And when a turbo does decide to let go it will send all kinds of parts and pieces through the intercooler and into your engine, which of course will require you to rebuild it from scratch.

There are a few ways to add more air.  You could get a bigger turbo, or you can use compound turbos.  Now when you go to a bigger single turbo it takes longer to spin up, creating whats known as "turbo lag".  It's an effect that all turbocharged engines have when the engine can't spin up a turbo quickly enough and when you put your right foot in it there is a delay, or "lag".  Now the fix for this is to take a larger turbo and feed it with a smaller one.  You can move more air this way because once the smaller turbo hits its peak output, the large turbo is already spun up and takes over.  I'll use the Porsche 911 as an example.  The 3.6L V-6 Porsche engine is turbocharged and intercooled, just like a Cummins.  They had a problem with turbo lag on some of the older Porsche 911 cars, and it was common knowledge that the late 1970's and early 1980's cars were plagued with this problem.  What Porsche did to fix it in the cars more recent production was using two of the KKK (Triple K) turbochargers setup so that one turbo was running constantly, and the other engaged only when certain criteria was met, like a hard and heavy right foot or a certain RPM at a certain speed.

The P-pump has the ability to go that high, but requires some work.  Depending on how this used engine was really used will dictate the additional work needed to get that output.  This is why you might just want to turn the pump in for a core fee and replace it with one already built.  Unless you've got a buddy that can do it and can bribe him with his favorite "beverage".

For the intercooler, it needs to be 100% aluminium because some of the stock intercoolers on the Dodge have plastic end pieces which totally suck and have a tendancy to pop off or simply break.  Most folks that want the added dependability will fix this simply by replacing the stock unit.  Run your boost too high and they pop right off, and dependable goes right out the window.  And of course running compound turbos will pop those end pieces in no time flat.

BD makes an intercooler thats all aluminium and the mag has an article on it here:

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/dodge/0803dp_1998_dodge_ram/index.html

If you're looking for a price, Thoroughbred Diesel has one for around $1300 bucks here:

http://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/bd-diesel/intercooler.htm



I found a seller on Ebay that builds Billet Allison transmissions to handle 700HP. Buy it now is $3,299+$150 shipping. That solves the transmission. As far as the tyre size and needing to put proper gear ratio's in my differentials, looking at how much this is going to cost, I think I am going to have to save the suspension work for another day.

The Allison is a computer controlled transmission, so you'll need to create an interface with the Cummins PCM somehow, and that means more money.  What you really should be looking for is using a 47RE built up with 48RE parts from NADP or Goerend.  This makes your conversion to the Cummins a much easier process because it will match right up to the engine without the need for the adapter plate and additional work for the electronics.

Waiting on the suspension is a good idea.  Getting this truck running (and dependable) should be the first priority.




My plan: Build a long travel daily driver to test my suspension design. I plan on beating the hell out of it Baja style every free weekend I get when I finnaly complete the suspension system.

Reality is that I do no beleive I will be able to afford nearly everything I want in my rig. My first goal is to have a solid truck to bring to college. So the engine and transmission swap will be my first bear to tackle. Cosmetics well come second. And the suspension will come another day. I am using for my senior project. so I have 4 years to come up with the money and build it. No rush.

Turning this truck into a baja rig is a lofty goal given the size and weight of a stock Excursion.  Now you're adding a 1400 pound engine in it, and that makes it much more lofty.  I think that with time this should be doable but it will also require quite a bit of money.  I do hope it pans out for you, and you should definately document the process with pictures.




Kris  
2006 Dodge Ram 2500 QC 5.9L - No Mods Yet
2008 Dodge Ram 3500 QC 6.7L - Titan Fuel Tank Owner

wouldnt be easier to reach the 500 hp goal with a cr motor.  
I burn more diesel and run more miles in a week the most of you people do in a month. ctds that have been used 97 3500, 98.5 3500, 98.5 3500,01 3500, 03 3500. those that are being used 06 3500, 07 3500. and yea these trucks earn their living

Well, yes and no .....

The upside is the later model CR engine has a 100 plus horsepower advantage from the start.  If you get a 325hp engine, you're only adding 175 hp, or about a 43% increase.  With a decent second gen, you're closer to the 200hp range and getting to 500hp is an increase of 150%.

The downside of course is all the electronics you'd need to bring over to the Excursion, and getting them to interface with the truck properly.

But we can flip this around, too .....

The upside for the second gen motor is the parts are cheaper than they are for a CR engine build.  You can get some insane horsepower from a properly tuned and fed P-pump Cummins.

The downside for the CR engine is cost of the conversion and getting the power to the ground.  Having to bring all the electronics over, plus the cost of a tuned motor, could easily buy a new diesel truck at today's prices.

Either way, I think this is going to be a pretty good truck.


Kris  
2006 Dodge Ram 2500 QC 5.9L - No Mods Yet
2008 Dodge Ram 3500 QC 6.7L - Titan Fuel Tank Owner

what did the guy at dtr put in his i thought he put a cr in it.  
I burn more diesel and run more miles in a week the most of you people do in a month. ctds that have been used 97 3500, 98.5 3500, 98.5 3500,01 3500, 03 3500. those that are being used 06 3500, 07 3500. and yea these trucks earn their living

I think he did, but there was a lot involved getting the electronics hooked up right, and the feeling I get from Kyle is he'd like this swap to be as easy as possible.



Kris  
2006 Dodge Ram 2500 QC 5.9L - No Mods Yet
2008 Dodge Ram 3500 QC 6.7L - Titan Fuel Tank Owner

hey Kyle the guys handle is 5.9excursion at dieseltruckresource.com you mite be able to get some info on what swap would work the best. I know but sometimes a 12v isnt the easiest to swap, we did it in my 03 dodge when the cr motor went. i thought it would be pretty simple but it wasnt it. if i could have done it over i would have just rebuilt the motor. with everything being controlled by a computer its hard to get anything mechanical to work with them  
I burn more diesel and run more miles in a week the most of you people do in a month. ctds that have been used 97 3500, 98.5 3500, 98.5 3500,01 3500, 03 3500. those that are being used 06 3500, 07 3500. and yea these trucks earn their living

Okay that will work for the Cummins.  You'll have enough room to fit the engine, and the stock suspension will be able to handle it.

The engine compartment for the Fords are fairly large. The Powerstrokes were all large in size. Replacing it with an inline will open a lot of room up in the engine bay. I will need a little bit a play room to begin with, since now I need to make plans for a twin compound turbo set up.

To be honest, you're not having to pay what some folks have paid to build up an engine.  Some of the ones featured in the magazine can run well over $20,000.

Yikes, I will try my best to be able to afford quality parts for a complete build. But you must understand being my age, and taking all the classes I am taking right now to even think about getting into UT, its hard to work more then 20-25 hours a week. One peice at a time. I chose the 12v because it was the cheepest and most reliable platform to start upgrading. But, even on the "cheep", it isn't cheep.

Now for all the upgrades and why you need them, let me explain this a different way.  You're basically doubling the horsepower this engine normally puts out.  If you don't fix the areas you know where a problem could or does exist to get the numbers you want, you lose the dependibility this engine provides.  A great example I use for this is a phrase from an instructor for a class I was taking on programming langauges:

Garbage in, garbage out.

Now anytime you add more fuel you need to add more air to get that fuel to burn, otherwise you get black smoke and alot of it.  Adding the extra air will burn that fuel and you'll get the power you want.  Black smoke is unburned fuel, which increases EGT's (exhaust gas temps) and could cause turbo failure.  As in making it look like Cherynobol.  And when a turbo does decide to let go it will send all kinds of parts and pieces through the intercooler and into your engine, which of course will require you to rebuild it from scratch.

There are a few ways to add more air.  You could get a bigger turbo, or you can use compound turbos.  Now when you go to a bigger single turbo it takes longer to spin up, creating whats known as "turbo lag".  It's an effect that all turbocharged engines have when the engine can't spin up a turbo quickly enough and when you put your right foot in it there is a delay, or "lag".  Now the fix for this is to take a larger turbo and feed it with a smaller one.  You can move more air this way because once the smaller turbo hits its peak output, the large turbo is already spun up and takes over.  I'll use the Porsche 911 as an example.  The 3.6L V-6 Porsche engine is turbocharged and intercooled, just like a Cummins.  They had a problem with turbo lag on some of the older Porsche 911 cars, and it was common knowledge that the late 1970's and early 1980's cars were plagued with this problem.  What Porsche did to fix it in the cars more recent production was using two of the KKK (Triple K) turbochargers setup so that one turbo was running constantly, and the other engaged only when certain criteria was met, like a hard and heavy right foot or a certain RPM at a certain speed.

What exactly are we after here? Volume of air, or PSI? Turbo lag is something I have had to deal with on my 6.0L. I completely understand what you are talking about. And the Porsche example was a very good analogy. To solve this problem with turbo lag on the 12v you suggested a twin turbo set up, my only question is do I have to buy two new turbos or can I use the stock turbo and add another smaller one? Would this work? or is the stock turbo set up as a mid range turbo thus eliminating the option of having one large and one small turbo?

The P-pump has the ability to go that high, but requires some work.  Depending on how this used engine was really used will dictate the additional work needed to get that output.  This is why you might just want to turn the pump in for a core fee and replace it with one already built.  Unless you've got a buddy that can do it and can bribe him with his favorite "beverage".

I am assuming that modifying the origanal P-pump would be cheeper then buying a built unit. If I could save a bit on keeping the origanal, I would most likely use that money towards the twin turbos. Wise?

For the intercooler, it needs to be 100% aluminium because some of the stock intercoolers on the Dodge have plastic end pieces which totally suck and have a tendancy to pop off or simply break.  Most folks that want the added dependability will fix this simply by replacing the stock unit.  Run your boost too high and they pop right off, and dependable goes right out the window.  And of course running compound turbos will pop those end pieces in no time flat.

BD makes an intercooler thats all aluminium and the mag has an article on it here:

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/dodge/0803dp_1998_dodge_ram/index.html

If you're looking for a price, Thoroughbred Diesel has one for around $1300 bucks here:

http://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/bd-diesel/intercooler.htm

Thank you for the links, I will put that down in my notes for near future references. I was not aware of the issues the origanal intercoolers had, I will be sure to buy I proper 100% aluminium intercooler. Do radiators have the same issue?

The Allison is a computer controlled transmission, so you'll need to create an interface with the Cummins PCM somehow, and that means more money.  What you really should be looking for is using a 47RE built up with 48RE parts from NADP or Goerend.  This makes your conversion to the Cummins a much easier process because it will match right up to the engine without the need for the adapter plate and additional work for the electronics.

Waiting on the suspension is a good idea.  Getting this truck running (and dependable) should be the first priority.

The Allison transmission was attractive to me because it is a brodly used transmission with plenty of upgrades. Not to mention an option 6 speed. Destroked.com have completed many conversions with Ford/Cummins/Allison conversions. I am sure they have worked out the electronic issues.

Regardless, I am still very interested in your suggested transmissions. The simpler the better in my opinion. Forgive my ignorance when it comes to the 47RE/48RE transmissions, but I know nothing about them. Are they affordable? 6 speed? Strong? I will do my own research on them. Just wanted your personal opinion on them since it seems you have experience with the trasmission.

Turning this truck into a baja rig is a lofty goal given the size and weight of a stock Excursion.  Now you're adding a 1400 pound engine in it, and that makes it much more lofty.  I think that with time this should be doable but it will also require quite a bit of money.  I do hope it pans out for you, and you should definately document the process with pictures.

It is an aggressive project... But, I have dreamt about building my suspension for years now. And the Excursion in my opinion is not a bad chassis to start with. It will continue to be my project for the next few years. I will be sure to keep y'all updated with photos and most likely... more questions.

Regarding the engine weight, I am not 100% sure, but I think it will be lighter. The 6.0L is heavy, nearly 1,100 lbs. Where-as, the Cummins weighs in at just under 1,000 lbs. I will do a before and after weight, but I think you will be surprised.

-KBK  

hey Kyle the guys handle is 5.9excursion at dieseltruckresource.com you mite be able to get some info on what swap would work the best. I know but sometimes a 12v isnt the easiest to swap, we did it in my 03 dodge when the cr motor went. i thought it would be pretty simple but it wasnt it. if i could have done it over i would have just rebuilt the motor. with everything being controlled by a computer its hard to get anything mechanical to work with them  

Bull,

Thank you for the reply, but, to spite the difficulty with swapping the engine, I do not want to put any money into my 6.0L. From day one we have had issues with it. We bought the Excursion new. Thankfully, warranty coverd most of the cost of most of the repairs. But as soon as we hit 100K miles, the warranty ended, but the problems did not. I would rather start with a reliable engine, and go from there.

-KBK  

the cr is a reliable engine thats what the guy put in his their are guys who have over 200k on their motors. it would be better choice to get the hp that you want without the mega cost. my point beiing is that i had a dodge truck that had the diesel already in and it cost me around an extra 4k just to get everything to semi work. still had alt issues and a/c. which are run by an ecm which i would think your ford is the same. see if you can talk to that guy he mite be able to help you out in the long run. just my .02  
I burn more diesel and run more miles in a week the most of you people do in a month. ctds that have been used 97 3500, 98.5 3500, 98.5 3500,01 3500, 03 3500. those that are being used 06 3500, 07 3500. and yea these trucks earn their living

What exactly are we after here? Volume of air, or PSI? Turbo lag is something I have had to deal with on my 6.0L. I completely understand what you are talking about. And the Porsche example was a very good analogy. To solve this problem with turbo lag on the 12v you suggested a twin turbo set up, my only question is do I have to buy two new turbos or can I use the stock turbo and add another smaller one? Would this work? or is the stock turbo set up as a mid range turbo thus eliminating the option of having one large and one small turbo?

Volume of air and PSI go hand in hand.  You can actually drop your boost but increase your flow simply by adding some mods, like a cast aluminium intake manifold.  It's not that you're making less boost, its just that its easier to get more air from point A to point B (volume) without the same amount of work (PSI).

The stock turbo will make about 38 to 42 PSI without mods, give or take a few PSI.  Once you add some mods to it (examples include boost foolers on electronically controlled wastegate turbos, boost elbows on manual wastegate turbos, and modified wastegate springs) and you can run them up to 50 PSI or more.  Keep in mind that before you get to this level of boost you should worry about turbo overspin or lifting the head off the engine block.  Overspin the turbo and its internals will separate violently, and too much boost without head studs will stretch the stock head bolts until something pops.




I am assuming that modifying the origanal P-pump would be cheeper then buying a built unit. If I could save a bit on keeping the origanal, I would most likely use that money towards the twin turbos. Wise?

You could spend a little more and get a pump thats ready to go, or wait while yours is being built.  It all depends on what your time is worth and how much of it you have.  If you've got the time, let them build up yours, however if this is something you need "right now" then you should trade yours in for a core fee and buy the new one.




Thank you for the links, I will put that down in my notes for near future references. I was not aware of the issues the origanal intercoolers had, I will be sure to buy I proper 100% aluminium intercooler. Do radiators have the same issue?

Radiators don't have this problem, but an improved design can help with cooling it faster.  I would only worry about this if you were in hotter climates and really running it hard.



The Allison transmission was attractive to me because it is a brodly used transmission with plenty of upgrades. Not to mention an option 6 speed. Destroked.com have completed many conversions with Ford/Cummins/Allison conversions. I am sure they have worked out the electronic issues.

Regardless, I am still very interested in your suggested transmissions. The simpler the better in my opinion. Forgive my ignorance when it comes to the 47RE/48RE transmissions, but I know nothing about them. Are they affordable? 6 speed? Strong? I will do my own research on them. Just wanted your personal opinion on them since it seems you have experience with the trasmission.

It's not a 6 speed, but a 4 speed with 4th being OD.  Once they're built up, they can easily handle the power output you're looking to handle.  You're looking at around $6,000 for the tranny, but you'd have to do the same to the Allison and you'll end up spending about the same if not more due to the adapter plate and electronics from Destroked.com.




Regarding the engine weight, I am not 100% sure, but I think it will be lighter. The 6.0L is heavy, nearly 1,100 lbs. Where-as, the Cummins weighs in at just under 1,000 lbs. I will do a before and after weight, but I think you will be surprised.

Cummins has listed the engine weight at 975 pounds dry weight for the 12V and 1100 dry weight for the 24V, so expect it to weigh very close or slightly more once you fill it with oil and coolant.



Kris  
2006 Dodge Ram 2500 QC 5.9L - No Mods Yet
2008 Dodge Ram 3500 QC 6.7L - Titan Fuel Tank Owner

call russ at maximum diesel in hemet, Ca. i was in his shop last night and he had a 12v cummins in a lifted excursion that he did a while back. it looks pretty good, almost like it belongs there.  jd  

Politicalbiker
http://blacksmokin.com/bosch-p7100-injection-pump
There is a artical at this sight you should read on P-pumps.
I have been thinking about the Dodge intercooler & this comment,  "For the intercooler, it needs to be 100% aluminium because some of the stock intercoolers on the Dodge have plastic end pieces which totally suck and have a tendancy to pop off or simply break.  Most folks that want the added dependability will fix this simply by replacing the stock unit.  Run your boost too high and they pop right off, and dependable goes right out the window.  And of course running compound turbos will pop those end pieces in no time flat."
Why couldn't you cut the plastic conections off & wield on alumminum ends? This should save a bunch of cash sence thier are so many around.
I have also been thinking about the Turbo-lag, if you got with An after market turbo that uses alittle better barrings, but one that would work as twin set up so when you went that directon you are half way there, this would help. Also you can turn up the P-pump & put in a 3200 or a 4000rpm govurner spring. If this sounds good to you besure to read the artical @ the link to "Blacksmoken.com". There is some good info about putting in 60psi valve springs & not using stock fuel pumps. Oh another thing I came across is the 5R110 trans. out of a 03 to 06 or 07 ford supper duty, I am not sure how long they used them, but they are a party though trans the best part is you don't have to worry about building them up. They also came with a PTO option, which could come in handy, you never know. I don't realy know how it would hold up behind 850 horses,but it is worth looking in to. The one I found had 83,000ml. on it but they only wanted $900.00 for it. The transfercase was another $650.00-make sure you get the manuel case. For adapters & wiring Ford cummins.com can help. Any way good luck & Dream BIGER!!!!!LOL